did the Vietnamese consider themselves a separate people from the Chinese

Question

During the 1000 years of Chinese occupation in Vietnam, did the Vietnamese consider themselves a separate people from the Chinese, or did they think of themselves as similar in heritage?

Answer 1

Problem is, we don’t know much about that 1000 years of the region, hence, all we could do, it is to find the plausible explanation. I would like to argue that, there must be a strong sense of separation-identity awareness which never go away from this region, and such an awareness is radically strong enough to enable her success to get rid of China, while having many other regions under the ruling of China couldn’t.

And by the way, about the record of that era, here is something which can hint us a clue. One time I speak to an Asian healer in Hong Kong, about the origin of Cantonese snake soup, he mentioned a Tang dynasty text which talks about the snake consumption in Cantonia, and the record was written by a Chinese man who visited to the region of now Guangdong province, where he witnessed the local Viet people’s custom of snake consumption. What is important to be noted is that, this author himself was still seeing “local Viet people” in this region, and it was during Tang dynasty. So, it is my guess that, the so called “100 Viet(s) tribes” phenomena hasn’t fully died out during the Tang dynasty, and I think this can be related to your question.

FYI: you will hear some people who merely says that the Ngo dynasty is the first dynasty of Vietnam, without providing a successful argumentation to against the legitimacy of both Trieu Dynasty and Vạn Xuân kingdom, but by saying so, they claim that the Vietnamese identity only came into existence in 939 AD, and thus the so called “Chinese ruling of Vietnam” didn’t exist. In short, they dismiss the existence of Vietnamese-ness, and to simplify the Vietnamese identity as a mere citizenship concept. I don’t know if that is really something worthy to proposes, on the one hand it is untrue about the conception of “Vietnamese” and on the other hand it is in no help of ego.

Answer 2

Vietnamese have always considered themselves as separate people from the Chinese. It is very important to note that

Before the 1000 years of China’s rule, Vietnamese already existed as a separate country and as a different nationality for several thousand years since 2,000 BC. During China’s rule, Vietnam was a tributary country to China.

China did not pop-out of the ground as a single country. There used to be multiple independent countries and nationalities in its current northern provinces: Those countries were Qin, Chu, Han, Wei, Zhao, Qi, and Yan. Back then Vietnam’s territories included China’s current southern provinces.

China lies about these facts by claiming those independent countries that existed at the same time as “dynasties”. In fact, they were similar to Europe with many different countries and nationalities. And the boundaries changed over time as one country in China’s current region invaded other countries, just as the boundaries of European countries changed over time.

In 221 BC Qin conquered Chu, Han, Wei, Zhao, Qi, and Yan and created Chiba. It is similar to the Nazis occupying Europe during WWII. Imagine if the Nazis had won WWII and called Europe as a new country “EuroNazi” with its history starting from that point. However, the history of other European countries such as France and Spain still existed before the Nazis occupied them. This is why China’s history is fraudulent, where it uses its time period of occupation of other countries as if such countries did not exist before its occupation when in fact those countries did.

So Vietnam existed before China conquered other countries and became the larger country. Vietnam was then ruled as a tributary country by China for 1,000 years before restoring its original independence.

Chinese tactic of trying to re-occupy other countries whether they are Vietnam, Tibet, Mongolia, etc, is that China only mentions its occupation period of other countries in its history and ignores the thousands of years those countries had existed as independent countries and as different nationalities *before* its occupation.

The post by Tim Tran is completely wrong because he is a Chinese so his post is from the Chinese version of false history as described above.

Answer 3

Back in the old day, there wasn’t any Vietnam here, only tribes remained that created and lived the same Wet rice culture, that even far appeared more than CN Agriculture. Those tribes occupied each other and created the country represented Vietnam, but inside that was just only the biggest tribe among them. After the first invasion of CN to VN, those small tribe suffered from the war, that united first time, from time to time and defeated the invasion, but to call “invasion” is not right… In those 1000 years, Vietnamese are not just Vietnamese but also Chinese, those bureaucrat, ruler, landlord of Chinese conflicted with Qin and Han family, they sympathized with the poor, they were not except the high demand of taxes and rules, so they stood up to lead the way, began with Trieu family, called Nan Yuen Nation ( Vietnam called Yuenan in chinese, old mean of “South Colony”). He was the former General of Qin army and became the ruler of a part of “South Colony”. After the conflict, he stood up with other rulers, created the very first Vietnam Nation that including Part of Guangdong and Guangxi, North of Vietnam. From time to time, there weren’t Nan Yuen anymore, Guangdong, Guangxi failed to defend and went back to China, only small piece in the south remained, that is the true Vietnam. Ended up the 1000 years of North occupation, from this time Vietnamese is Vietnamese and Vietnam is Vietnam.

Answer 4

The Chinese empire ruled many different peoples and what would become Vietnam today was just one of them, and Vietnam happened to have gained independence from direct Chinese rule later on. Vietnam under the Chinese imperial court was no different from other southern regions, which were not really Sinitized until a few centuries ago. That does not mean they were not part of the empire.

The term “occupation” is strange here. Would you call the Roman province of Iberia “Italian occupation of Spain”, or Britannia “Italian occupation of England”? You see what I’m getting at? Remember modern nation-state is a 20th century invention, such categories do not apply to ancient imperial or feudal history. Even though Vietnam became independent from Chinese dynasties, Vietnamese officials still identified with the sinosphere culture and the mandate of the Chinese Court. Only in recent decades, heroes that were once celebrated for Confucian virtues transformed into national icons to serve the need of the newly established Vietnamese nation. By the way, until a few centuries ago, southern Vietnam was a whole different state with a completely different culture, and was conquered by the Vietnamese kingdom. Today, it is simply considered part of the Vietnamese nation. Some of the refugees from the south actually went to China for refuge, and became one of the 56 ethnic groups of modern China. My point being there is no consistent, transhistoric “Vietnamese nation”.

Answer 5

The Vietnamese speak a completely different language. Not even the in the same language family with the Chinese. This means Vietnam and China are culturally much more different with each other than Poland and Russia. So what do you think ?

I edit this answer because the ignorance of some other answers and my comment section is surprising. Let me explain my point here:

The entire Chinese language family, Mandarin or not, is an unified Sinitic branch of Sino-Tibetan family. While Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language, which is completely separated with Chinese. A good analog is that different Chinese languages are like different Latin languages such as Italian, Spanish and Portuguese, all of which are Latin family of Indo-European system. And Vietnamese is like Turkish which belongs to a different family called Turkic system. Is it so difficult to understand, I wonder?

Sino-Tibetan languages - Wikipedia

Chinese language - Wikipedia

Austroasiatic languages - Wikipedia

Answer 6

Question : During the 1000 years of Chinese occupation in Vietnam, did the Vietnamese consider themselves a separate people from the Chinese, or did they think of themselves as similar in heritage?

Answer : Surely, No-one could answer your question which could persuade all of us much due to lack of evidence or historical documents. In each period of Vietnamese history, especially 1000 years of being occupied and colonized by China, China, and the Chinese Empires have tried to erase all the Vietnamese identity and assimilate the Vietnamese into the Chinese Han but failed miserably. However, through the indirect evidence and also indirectly historical documents, We see that the concept of the Vietnamese identity has always attached tightly with the concept of the Southern nation - Vietnam in contrary to the Northern Nation - China which led to countless rebellions of the Vietnamese against the Chinese colonization within around 1000 years. There are some points to confirm that the Vietnamese ( Southern people ) consider themselves a separate people from the Chinese ( Northern people )

Firstly , the Vietnamese have always seen their first state - Van Lang led by the Hung Kings of the Hong Bang Dynasty 2879–258 BC , not the Chinese Xia Dynasty 2070–1600 BC. From generation to generation of the Vietnamese have always been taught that they are descendants of the Lac Hong, of the Hung Kings instead of the Chinese Huaxia.

After 1000 years of being occupied by China, the exchange of culture between the two nations is unavoidable which led to the similarities. But the Vietnamese have never identified themselves as having the same heritage as the Chinese even though they have learned much from the Chinese civilization. Just as now, Vietnam also has learned much from the western civilization but they have never seen themselves as the westerners.

Secondly , The Vietnamese language and the Chinese language are different and even have not the same root. The Vietnamese people at that time speak their own language - the Vietic language instead of the Chinese language. So, about language, the Vietnamese often see themselves as different from the Chinese.

According to Google, the Vietnamese language is classified as the Austro-Asiatic language family and the Chinese belong to the Sino-Tibetan language family.

Thirdly, There are countless rebellions and uprisings of the Vietnamese against the Chinese colonial rules during the Chinese occupation era such as:

Trung Sister's revolt against the Chinese Han occupation and restored the independence of Vietnam and ruled Vietnam briefly until 43 AD. The Trung Sisters Kings only retook the short independent period for Vietnam with Linh Nam Kingdom but it has inspired the next and next rebels of the Vietnamese against the Chinese rules until completely restoring full independence in 938AD.

“…with a single cry [the Trưng sisters] led the prefectures of Cửu Chân, Nhật Nam, Hợp Phố, and 65 strongholds heed their call. They… proclaimed their rule as easily as their turning over their hands. It awakened all of us that we can be independent… i n the span of more than one thousand years, men of this land only bowed their heads and accepted the fate of servitude to the people from the North”

(Vietnam was under the Chinese Han colonial rule

After defeating the rebellion, the Han forces also appear to have massacred most of the Lạc Việt aristocracy, beheading five to ten thousand people and deporting several hundred families to China. After the Trưng sisters were dead, Ma Yuan spent most of the year 43 building up the Han administration in the Red River Delta and preparing the local society for direct Han rule.[20] General Ma Yuan aggressively sinicized the culture and customs of the local people, removing their tribal ways, so they could be more easily governed by Han China . He melted down the Lac bronze drums, their chieftains' symbol of authority, to cast a statue of a horse, which he presented to Emperor Guangwu when he returned to Luoyang in the autumn of 44 AD. [1] In Ma Yuan’s letter to his nephews, while campaigning in Jiaozhi, he quoted a Chinese saying: “If you do not succeed in sculpting a swan, the result will still look like a duck.

Lady Trieu's revolt 248 AD

She is quoted as saying, "I'd like to ride storms, kill orcas in the open sea , drive out the aggressors, reconquer the country , undo the ties of serfdom, and never bend my back to be the concubine of whatever man.

Ly Bi revolt in 542–545 AD and restored another short period of independence of Vietnam from 545–602AD with his early Ly Dynasty.

Mai Hac De revolt 713–722AD

Phung Hung revolt 776–794 AD

Khuc Thua Dua revolt 905–906 AD and retook the autonomous right for Vietnam.

Duong Dinh Nghe revolt against the first Chinese Southern Han invasion and retook the autonomous right for Vietnam 930–931 AD.

Ngo Quyen revolt against the second Chinese Southern Han invasion and officially restored the full independence for Vietnam in 938, established the fourth Dynasty of the Vietnamese - Ngo Dynasty 939–965AD after the Hong Bang Dynasty 2879–258BC, Thuc Dynasty 258–180BC, the Early Ly Dynasty 545–602AD, and ended about 1000 years of the Chinese domination from 180BC-938AD.

The question is that if at that time, the Vietnamese considered themselves as the Chinese Han, Why the Chinese states and rulers must try to erase the Vietnamese culture and customs, assimilate the Vietnamese people?

In conclusion: From What I have said above, the Vietnamese identity has been attached to the establishment and development of the Vietnamese states and the Vietnamese nation which is always perceived as different from the Chinese states and the Chinese nation even during the period of being Chinese domination about 1000 years. So, we could conclude that during the 1000 years of Chinese occupation in Vietnam, the Vietnamese or the people in Vietnam consider themselves separate people from the Chinese.

P/s: Another attempt of the Chinese state trying to erase the Vietnamese identity happened around 1407–1428, the fourth and also last period of the Chinese domination of Vietnam .

An entry in the Ming Shilu ( traditional Chinese : 明實錄; simplified Chinese : 明实录) dated 15 August 1406 recorded an imperial order from Emperor Yongle that instructed for Vietnamese records such as maps and registers to be saved and preserved by the Chinese army:

己未敕征討安南總兵官成國公朱能等曰師入安南下郡邑凡得文籍圖志皆勿毀。 [24]

In addition, according to Yueqiaoshu (Chinese: 越嶠書, Vietnamese: Việt kiệu thư), on August 21, 1406, the Yongle Emperor issued an order to Ming soldiers in Annam:

兵入。除釋道經板經文不燬。外一切書板文字以至俚俗童蒙所習。如上大人丘乙已之類。片紙隻字悉皆燬之。其境內中國 所立碑刻則存之。但是安南所立者悉壞之。一字不存。 [25] "Once our army enters Annam, except Buddhist and Taoist text; all books and notes, including folklore and children book, should be burnt. The stelae erected by China should be protected carefully, while those erected by Annam, should be completely annihilated. Do not spare even one character."

On the 21st day of the 5th lunar month of the following year, Emperor Yongle issued another order to Ming soldiers in Annam:

屢嘗諭爾凡安南所有一切書板文字。以至俚俗童蒙所習。如上大人丘乙已之類。片紙隻字及彼處自立碑刻。見者即便毀壞勿存 。今聞軍中所得文字不即令軍人焚毀。必檢視然後焚之。且軍人多不識字。若一一令其如此。必致傳遞遺失者多。爾今宜一如前敕。號令軍中但遇彼處所有一應文字即便焚毀。毋得存留。 [25] "I have repeatedly told you all to burnt all Annamese books, including folklore and children books and the local stelae should be destroyed immediately upon sight. Recently I heard our soldiers hesitated and read those books before burning them. Most soldiers do not know how to read, so it will be a waste of our time. Now you have to strictly obey my previous command, and burn all local books upon sight without hesitation.

The Chinese colonists encouraging the Ming Confucian ideology, bureaucratic and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C