Why do most non-Chinese people believe the Vietnamese won the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War?

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Why do most non-Chinese people believe the Vietnamese won the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War?

The Sino-Vietnamese War was a border war fought between China and Vietnam in early 1979. China launched an offensive in response to Vietnam's actions against the Khmer Rouge in 1978, which ended the rule of the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. Both China and Vietnam claimed victory in the last of the Indochina Wars.
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China invaded Vietnam to punish it for its offensive on Cambodia. They made this very clear at the time. The Chinese ended up withdrawing after 4 weeks, sustaining heavier than expected casualties, while Vietnam stayed in Cambodia for another 10 years to keep them in check. That is hard to sell as a victory for them.

Casualties on both sides appeared to be roughy even in the end (but who would ever really know). The Chinese thought they would attack the Northern border of Vietnam while the core Vietnamese army were occupied in the South with Cambodia.

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They appear to have miscalculated on 150,000 odd strong local militias in the area willing to band together, who were well trained and experienced from decades of war.

So China seem to have failed with intelligence, failed in their policital objective, and got their arses handed to them by farmers, as so many had before.

von Clausewitz said ‘war is the continuation of politics by other means.’ Winning is achieving those political goals. China didn’t do this. They didn’t inflict heavier losses on the enemy and the larger political reason for the attacks wasn’t achieved.

I think most people would say that’s a loss.

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Actually, China came up with all kinds of reasons for the invasion after its failure, propaganda to make it look like the invasion was a success, but in fact China was utterly humiliated in this attack.

One of these common claims is that the war was just a proxy war with the Soviet Union to show how weak an ally the Soviets were for the Vietnamese. This was not one of the original intentions, but was actually a consequence of the war. And it didn’t really do that, because the Chinese were repelled from Vietnam, and they fled only before their forces could be obliterated through slow and agonizing attrition. The Chinese generals knew they were in deep water by the end of a week, and understood that they were going to waste huge numbers of lives and uncountable resources for what would, in the end, be a humiliating defeat in any case.

China launched the invasion as a punishment for Vietnam invading Cambodia and unseating the genocidal, murderous regime of Pol Pot, supported by China

(Interesting side note: China has never apologized for supporting Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge, which massacred 1/3 of the Cambodian people, with China’s knowledge and support. The Vietnamese, unlike many in the west in that they believed the refugee stories they were hearing, decided to take down the Chinese-backed murderers in Cambodia; it was partly out of terror at these Chinese-backed and trained psychopaths taking power permanently in Southeast Asia that they intervened. Also, watching Pol Pot’s Chinese-backed psychopaths murder millions of people was hard.)

Vietnam’s battle-hardened population had successfully fought off the Chinese (historically, its main enemy), the French, the Japanese, the Americans (!!) and many international American allies, and the Chinese politicians somehow thought they could just walk in and intimidate Vietnamese. This was the height of hubris. You need to be either entirely delusional, believing your own propaganda, or steeped in an air of nationalistic/racialist superiority to believe any of that. Both of these were true of the CCP, which had a kind of “Big brother - little dumb brother” contempt for the Vietnamese.

Chinese troops were totally unprepared, fought poorly, couldn’t find the enemy, were fighting in unfamiliar terrain, just like the French, Japanese and Americans, the Chinese suffered deaths from non-combat, and they ran just before they finally got their asses handed to them on a plate.

More, the humiliation for China was deeper than it was even for the Americans, because the Chinese had the lesson of the Americans staring them in the face, and they utterly failed to learn anything from it. When it dawned on them that they were making an even graver mistake than the Americans, they might have taken that lesson to heart and called an early end to the war.

The Americans could be excused of their stupidity, for slowly getting drawn into a war they didn’t really support, for murky reasons that made little sense, because their intervention in 1950 in Korea had made sense and had ultimately turned out to have been a very good idea. But transposed to the 1960’s, the situation in Vietnam was nothing like the Korean war. The US had no plan, no strategy, and no really clear goals. It had no good ally in the leadership of the putative South Vietnam, which was, especially by US standards, a wholly awful regime, and the US government, no matter how committed to fighting communism, had no faith in or trust in the South Vietnamese government’s competency or legitimacy. The South Vietnamese government was led by manipulative, deceitful autocrats and a few rich families, adept at putting the US in no-win situations. The Us was unable to withdraw support from South Vietnam, but unable to really endorse the South Vietnamese government, either. The US was in a bind.

The US misinterpreted a nationalist conflict against French colonization as a fight against communism, or inserted this into it, and it thought it could just adopt the goals it had had in 1950 in Korea. The Vietnamese proved themselves tougher, more committed and far smarter fighters than the Americans, who led the most impressive military force in the world …. and these same Vietnamese were about to do the same to the Chinese. This is an unavoidable fact, something modern Chinese keyboard warriors have trouble admitting. What were the Chinese generals thinking? That they could just walk in? Were they crazy?

China failed in all of its objectives. Ultimately, Vietnam stayed in Cambodia for 10 years; the current regime there is a Vietnamese-allied government put in place by Vietnam. China completely failed to rescue Pol Pot’s regime (thankfully, for the Cambodian people, because these Chinese-backed guerillas would have butchered more millions).

In China’s traditional mindset, Vietnam is a place filled with uncultured southern barbarians who should bend the knee to the superior Chinese. To have the plucky Vietnamese humiliate China was too much for them, so they can’t admit to having been so completely beaten. To this day, many “patriotic” Chinese find it necessary to pretend China won that war, or at least didn’t lose it.

But it’s not really a surprise that China lost so badly, and Chinese, indeed, need not feel humiliated. Bragging about invented retroactive success is unnecessary. Vietnam bested far more powerful foes than the PRC, and brought major empires low. Sending the Chinese packing was child’s play after generations of warfare. Nobody should be humiliated by that. If anything, the PRC should be embarrassed just by having thought they could take on Vietnam in the first place.

North Vietnam had just utterly crushed an American-backed regime in a war that cost millions of lives over decades, and it was united by one overarching principle: nationalism, and the need to defend the nation at all costs, understood from the top to the bottom. Its people were used to suffering, had seen dramatic reversals, and as much as many disagreed with the government in Hanoi, or even hated it, they hated any invaders more. China succeeded in uniting Vietnamese against the outside by proving that China was the same imperial bad boy it has been centuries earlier. After the Americans bled profusely, China was insane to think it could achieve anything there. It’s like a wanna-be tough guy watching a wiry little kid beat the snot out of some bully, and then he puffs up his chest and marches over to show the little kid who’s boss. Taking on a wiry little kid who just knocked out a guy bigger than you means you’re crazy.

China failed to learn the lesson that every other power has learned:

Do. Not. Invade. Vietnam.

Cambodia and the Chinese-Backed Khmer Rouge

China has never acknowledged or paid for its war crimes in knowingly supporting the genocide of Cambodians. It actively supported Pol Pot’s regime to the tune of billions in aid and weaponry, and knew the entire time what was happening. It knew there was a horrific genocide going on, and doubled down on its support for Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge. It took the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia to save the Cambodian people from Pol Pot’s murderers and their Chinese supporters.

While China talks a good talk about forcing Japan to be honest, it has a serious problem with honesty itself.

For a good discussion on deliberate Chinese forgetfulness and dishonesty re its own rather dark crimes, this is a good discussion:

China Is Urged to Confront Its Own History

“The tour guide outside the bloodstained classrooms of the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum, the high school in the Cambodian capital of Phnom Penh transformed into a prison and torture center by the Khmer Rouge, paused to ask whether any tourists in the group were from China. Visibly relieved when no hands were raised, he went on to describe the enabling role that Beijing played in the Khmer Rouge’s murderous rampage that claimed the lives of an estimated 1.7 million Cambodians beginning in 1975.

Later, he explained why he asked whether there were Chinese among his audience. “They get very angry when I say it was because of China that Pol Pot was able to kill so many people,” he said with evident frustration. “They claim it’s not true, and then say ‘We are friends now. Do not talk about the past.’”

As China prepares to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II with a military parade in Beijing in September, the state news media has been hammering away at a central theme underpinning the government’s narrative about the suffering China endured under Japanese occupation: Tokyo must “face history,” goes the storyline and reaffirm its admitted wrongdoings. But China’s insistence that Japan face history is raising uncomfortable questions about Beijing’s own practice of suppressing historical truths about trespasses domestic and abroad.

Last week, People’s Daily, the Communist Party mouthpiece, published a series of articles that accused the Japanese government of “whitewashing its wartime past” and warning that right-wing nationalists were plotting to return the country to its militaristic ways, potentially jeopardizing regional stability.

Premier Li Keqiang of China raised the issue during a televised news conference this month. “For leaders of a country, while inheriting the historical achievements made by their predecessors, they also need to shoulder the historical responsibilities for crimes committed by past generations,” he said.

Pivoting off such statements, a number of independent Chinese historians have tried to highlight the Communist Party’s role in the deaths of tens of millions during man-made famines and the political terror that marked its first decades in power — episodes that are erased from the nation’s official history.

“The Chinese government propagandizes the parts which it finds useful while ignoring aspects that could draw criticism,” said Zhang Lifan, a prominent historian who has sought to illuminate the party’s selective approach to its history, which is enforced through media censorship and book-publishing bans.

In recent months, the Japanese, too, have been calling on China to acknowledge its role in some of the greatest atrocities of the 20th century.

Writing for the Japanese website JBpress, Kuni Miyake, a retired Japanese diplomat, castigated the Chinese government for mocking “the global standard of intellectual fairness” by refusing to accept accountability for the Great Leap Forward, Mao Zedong’s failed industrialization effort during the 1950s that some historians say led to the death of 45 million people by famine and other causes, as well as the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution that killed thousands and traumatized a generation.

“If China asks others not to whitewash the history of 80 years ago, Beijing should be able to also face the modern history of China in the 1950s, ’60s, ’70s and, of course, in 1989,” Mr. Miyake wrote, the last date a reference to the year Chinese troops gunned down unarmed civilians during the protests at Tiananmen Square. “So far, there are no history museums in China that face such history.”

In recent months, Beijing has repeatedly expressed consternation wi

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Question: Who do most non-Chinese people believe the Vietnamese won the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War?

Answer: In the first place, Vietnam was a little surprised by the large numbers of the Chinese PLA - 600.000 troops used to wage the invasion war against Vietnam in 1979 in response to the Vietnamese-Cambodian war in 1978, but in general, China was still a loser in the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979 because of as follows:

Firstly , China did not reach most of its objectives set forth before the war when confronted with Vietnam.

Save the Khmer Rouge - Failed

China could not save the Chinese loyal ally - Khmer Rouge from the Vietnamese hand even though how much support it provided to Khmer Rouge before and after the Vietnamese-Cambodian war.

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(Angkor Wat, Cambodia)

Divided the Vietnamese-Soviet Union relationship - Failed

The matter is that the Soviet Union ally - Vietnam has been not defeated but the Chinese ally - the Khmer Rouge was totally defeated and hated by not only the Vietnamese but also the Cambodian people. Of course, the Chinese people would not be happy much when they knew that 200.000 Chinese ethnicities in Cambodia were genocided too by the China-backed Khmer Rouge regime.

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(Cam-Ranh)

During the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979, the Soviet Union provided timely and promptly most of the necessary things to Vietnam which helped its sole Southeast Asian ally not only prevented the Chinese invasion war in Vietnam but also the Khmer Rouges' threat in Cambodia.

Strategically, the Soviet Union's involvement prevented most of the case in which the Vietnamese-Chinese war 1979 escalated into the full-scale war.

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As all you know, the Soviet Union sent its troops to Mongolia and the border with China to put pressure on China, together with the Soviet Union Navy's presence on the South China Sea which prevented the possible Chinese attack from the Sea. Also, it aided immediately many of the anti-aircraft systems, aircraft to Vietnam which secure the air defense capacity of Vietnam at the best preparation. Moreover, the Soviet Union also helped mobilize urgently most of the professional troops of Vietnam from the Vietnamese-Cambodian battlefield to the Vietnamese-Chinese battlefield.

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The Soviet Union sent the groups of military advisors to Vietnam after the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979 broken out and helped Vietnam much during the war.

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For this purpose, China not only did not divide the Vietnamese-Soviet Union relationship but also did not save its ally - the Khmer Rouge. I really do not know that the Soviet Union or China should be embarrassed with falling to save their allies?

China failed to punish Vietnam instead of being taught many lessons by the Vietnamese later which they used these bitter experiences to modernize their PLA.

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(the Chinese soldiers captured by the Vietnamese militants during the war)

Within about one month of the war, China only faced the militia of Vietnam along the border but they lost 30.000–50.000 soldiers (Depend on where you read it), hundreds of thousands wounded. But what China gained? Nothing but thousands of the Chinese soldiers forever lied down on the Vietnamese soil and these Chinese young men sacrificed for saving the genocidal Khmer Rouge in Cambodia who killed about 200.000 Chinese ethnics themselves in Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge was worthy for these Chinese people to die and fight for? God knows it.

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(Cambodian Genocide)

The Sino-Vietnamese war used to improve the relationship with America and the western countries - This purpose is very controversial because it really related directly to the Sino-Vietnamese war? America wanted to use China to compete with the Soviet Union, not Vietnam. Also, It lasted not long as China wishes, especially the Tiananmen massacre (the western media said so) that happened in 1988.

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(Tiananmen square after being crushed by the PLA)

Secondly, the result of the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979 is successfully strategical to the Vietnamese when they ended one of the genocidal regimes - the Khmer Rouge but also broke temporarily the strategic surrounding of China from the westward of Vietnam.

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For the westward of Vietnam:

Vietnam and Laos have signed the alliance treaty since 1977.

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(Laos)

Cambodia is no longer hostile to Vietnam like what happened under the Khmer Rouge regime.

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There is still strategic competition in Laos and Cambodia between Vietnam and China but today, It only happens in the economic field.

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(National Assembly of Laos headquarter has been built by Vietnam, also as the Vietnamese gift sent to the Laos people and the Laos government

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Hanoi also has not opposed the New Russian Military Facility Chatter in Laos . Anyway, with Vietnam, Russia is still the trusted partner rather than China.

For Easternward of Vietnam - the South China Sea:

After losing the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979 and also the Khmer Rouge card became no longer useful, China decided to occupy parts of the Spratly Islands from Vietnam in 1988 before the Cambodian civil war ended up and the normalization of the Vietnamese-Chinese relation, the Vietnamese-American relationship..etc. So, nowadays, not economic competition as the westward, once again, Vietnam has faced the Chinese military threat from the Eastern ward - South China Sea.

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(the Chinese military bases on the South China Sea)

Even though how well the Sino-Vietnamese relation is, the Hanoi government will consistently consider the Chinese military presence on the South China Sea, especially on the artificial islands illegally occupied by China from Vietnam in 1988 as the main Vietnamese threat. The main problem is that Vietnam lacks the strategical trust with China, especially the Chinese real intention on the South China Sea. So, Hanoi will improve their Navy as much as possible accord to the Vietnamese financial capacity to secure that China must pay prices if it invaded Vietnam again.

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(Vietnamese Navy)

However, the problems between Vietnam and China will not be resolved soon. But in only the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979, Vietnam has achieved greatly the strategic purposes which secure the peaceful path for Vietnam now. Of course, China has not lost at all of its purposes but the Friendship with Vietnam went forever away which contributes much to the current geopolitics in the region, especially between Vietnam-China-America.

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In the end , To consider only the Sino-Vietnamese war 1979, Vietnam won China at strategic three points as follows:

China was impotent to see the collapse of the Cambodian Khmer Rouge after many Chinese efforts in helping and training the Khmer Rouge before.

Under the pressure from the former Soviet Union, what China could only do is that waging a limited war with Vietnam in which China did not dare to use its naval forces and also the air forces even though they were far stronger than Vietnam. As I said, in the first place, Vietnam was a little surprised with the number of Chinese soldiers sent to the war with Vietnam but It was all China could do.

Vietnam caused the un-imaginary losses for China even though China has used up to 600.000 soldiers for the war and only marched 10–20 km from the Sino-Vietnamese border within one month. Basically, they were stuck in Vietnam and must retreat out if they did not want another war with the Soviet Union.

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(the Vietnamese military strategist - Vo Nguyen Giap who commanded the Vietnamese forces to fight with Japan, France, America, China, and Khmer Rouge)

Obviously, Vietnam did not want a war with China but they could not resolve the Khmer Rouge matter by not invading Cambodia. So, What China madly responded should be what Vietnam must consider carefully before. As result, they ended up in the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia and also only faced the limited war with China could be the best price that Vietnam paid for the future of the Vietnamese nation.

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Most readers have been totally misled by the ever lying western media.

The reason why China attacked Vietnam was because several months earlier Vietnam signed a friendship accord with the USSR which included a provision that the latter would aid Vietnam if attacked by China.

With that accord in hand, Vietnam started to shift the border stones towards China.

China attacked Vietnam with her third rate soldiers and assigned the first and second rate soldiers in the North to anticipate the invasion from USSR.

The USSR reneged on the accord and didn't interfere.

China's third rate soldiers beat the hell out of the Vietnamese and retreated unhindered after teaching Vietnam that she was all alone.

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Because they don’t understand the two main issues in the war. China invaded Vietnam to force Vietnam out of Cambodia, which did not happen, and secondly to warn Vietnam and other Communists in Southeast Asia about becoming too cozy with the Soviet Union. We need to remember there was a strong geo-political conflict between the Soviet Union, which saw itself as the head of the Communist block, and China, which was trying to find its way independently of the Soviet Union.

On Nov. 4, 1978, Vietnam signed a military treaty with the Soviet Union where Moscow promised to intervene if China invaded Vietnam. This was clearly an intrusion into the Chinese sphere of influence. On Dec. 25, 1978, Vietnam invaded China client state Cambodia to remove the Pol Pot government. This gave China the reason it needed to invade Vietnam in February 1979,

If you look at the Sino-Vietnamese War from an immediate outcome, it looks like Vietnam clearly won. Although the Vietnamese had to move units to their north to guard their border with China, they didn’t withdraw from Cambodia. And, the Chinese offensive soon stalemated in Vietnam. And, one of the reasons China left Vietnam was due to the invasion showing issues with the Chinese army. The People’s Liberation Army would have required massive reinforcements to continue their offensive in Vietnam.

But, the one thing China did was demonstrate to Vietnam that the Soviet Union could not help them. The Chinese took everything they wanted to take from the area they occupied and then, when they decided, they withdrew from Vietnam. The Chinese proved to Vietnam that they couldn’t prevent the invasion nor could they do anything after the invasion. So, in this respect, the Chinese won.

In retrospect, however, it may be that this win was a lost. In the 1980s, Vietnam and the United States started healing old wounds. Today, Vietnam and the United States are the primary countries disputing China’s exclusive claim to the South China Sea.

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This war can be readed on so many levels:

Win war with a small number of casualties Uncheck

Force Vietnam to withdraw its troops in Cambodia Uncheck

Surround bigger Vietnamese troops and annihilat them Uncheck

Demonstrating to the Soviet Union against the expansion of the Soviet Union Check

Stop Vietnam from continuing to create trouble at the border Uncheck

(5 go further) The war last like 10 years and draw Vietnam and USSR empty Check

Stop Vietnam from annexing Cambodia and Laos Check

Show a certain attitude towards the United States Check

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It's been 40 years since the war,

On January 1, 1979, China and the United States established diplomatic relations.

On January 29, 1979, deng xiaoping visited the United States.

On February 17, 1979, when the sino-vietnamese war began,

On December 18, 1979, the third plenary session of the 11th central committee of the communist party of China opened, announcing China's reform and opening up.

These four events are four landmark events of China's comprehensive reform and opening-up.

The sino-vietnamese war was a clear oath for China to join the us-led western bloc and oppose the Soviet bloc in the us-soviet cold war.

This clears the last hurdle for China's economic integration into the west.

Look at the achievements of China's development today, China is undoubtedly the winner of that war!

Vietnam is merely a victim of China's strategic transformation and the changing relationship between China and the United States,

It is impossible for a small country to win in a great power game!

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The Wikipedia article you linked to provides the answer:

Both China and Vietnam claimed victory in the last of the Indochina Wars . As Vietnamese troops remained in Cambodia until 1989, one can say that China remained unsuccessful in its goal of dissuading Vietnam from involvement in Cambodia.

The Chinese claimed the war was to punish VN for the invasion of Cambodia. VN continued in Cambodia long after the war. Ergo: VN won.

To claim that China won because they never lost a battle in the war is to commit exactly the same error as committed by many Americans who believe the US did not lose the Vietnam War.

Wars are judged by their ultimate result, not by battle scorekeeping.

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As a Chinese,I can share something that I was heard or rather say been told,and you can judge them,mind that what I about to say is onesided,and not necessary to be right,feel free to correct or criticize me——

Back in 1979,China and Soviet was at the edge of being hostile(if it was not already),and Vietnam was on the Soviet side,Soviet backed Vietnam with fund and weapon,support Vietnam to take over entire indochina peninsula.

At least that is how Chinese government think about it.

And if that succeed,China would be in a even worse disadvantage,because with all our military force had at that time,it was not enough to repel a full scale invasion of Soviet(of course),and if Soviet successfully established a second front behind China before the potential invasion,then we wouldn't even have a direction to retreat,that could be a check mate.Then perhaps it would be the time of us to use the “One billion surrender each day” tactics and hope Soviet surrender back in a week later…_(:з」∠)_

I know it is kind of base on speculation,but back in 1979,nobody can be sure the WW3 wouldn't start immediately,so even Vietnam wasn't did anything we are still going to be worried,and let alone they did actually invaded Cambodia,and trashing us really hard.

Maybe Soviet wasn't had a full scale invasion of China decided before 1979,but if China wasn't find a way to stop Vietnam work with Soviet,then after Vietnam had entire indochina peninsula under control,wouldn't they rethink of their strategic objective?

So a smaller,“safer” war was been placed on the agenda of China.

Again I know it is kind of base on onesided speculation,but I am neither support nor against it,because I can't think of any better solution myself,if you can then please do me the honor.

And base on all these concern above,China wasn't plan to completely vanquish Vietnam from the begin to the end,the strategic objective of that war could be change due to circumstances,like if Vietnam or Soviet see the “double-pronged” plot couldn't worked out,maybe they can get back to the old simply trashing us way,we can take that,then this war could end right after the first few month of bloody conflict.

After all,we started the “reform and opening” at 1978,broke the old big brother‘s rule,so we are ehh…kind of deserve that?…at least untill it worked out.

But Vietnam was quite satisfied about the war,at least that is what they said,they believe they wasn't let those Chinese invader got any advantage,and for Soviet,they was invested a lot to Vietnam,if there could be more return then why not accept,specially when Vietnam was really enthusiasm to have a second round?

So the war was continued,for China,to fight with Vietnam is one thing,but consume Soviet‘s investment to Vietnam might be more important,a proxy war,that gained nothing,and can't win or loss simultaneously,is a good way to ruin a country‘s economy,unless they know when to quit,this war was lasted from 1979 all the way to 1989,consider that Soviet was “dissoluted” by itself at 1991,I think that war had a little bit effect about it.

I don't expect Vietnamese could forgive China,if they hate us forever,I can only say we deserve that,and still wish to apologize nonetheless,but like I said before,I can't think of any better solution myself,in hindsight view,if China was forced by Vietnam and Soviet to give up the “reform and opening” policy,re-jion the “socialism family”,the result of entire cold war could be change,perhaps now we are all armed to teeth and live in bomb shelter,waiting for the apocalypse to come,if it wasn't came yet.

What makes me sad is a lot of people in Vietnam and China,are still persistent about who is the winner,what winner could the two of us be?Waste our blood for interests of others,gained exactly nothing that couldn't achieve in peace .

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Because US lost Vietnam war, so it is hard for them to admit China can beat Vietnam. They seek every piece of evidence to support their argument. The reality was China was smart enough to rule out whatever US failed to achieve before even start the war. If United States did not want to risk a conflict with USSR, why should China take that risk? so yes, China didn’t smash Vietnam like a potato. If you call that a failure, they failed. Chinese soldiers were not bullet proof and Chinese generals were not Napoleon in Egypt, so they must have lost.

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